State endorsed theft or justice? (13 Mar, 2017)

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State endorsed theft or justice? (13 Mar, 2017)

Postby aardvark_admin » Mon Mar 13, 2017 7:51 am

This column is archived at: http://aardvark.co.nz/daily/2017/0313.shtml

Is the Proceeds Of Crime Act a fair one -- or is it far to open to abuse by "the powers that be"?

Even if you could prove that all your worldly possessions were paid for with legally earned money, how much would that cost in terms of legal fees and stress -- and why should the innocent have to carry that financial burden without even being charged with a crime?

Why aren't those who are victims of violent crimes entitled to have the assets of their attackers seized in a similar way and have that money paid to them? Does it not seem perverse to you that this draconian law seems to only apply to property crimes and not rape, assault or murder?

Why don't those who are subject to a proceeds of crime order but who prove that their property were bought with honest hard toil get compensation for the inconvenience, emotional stress and expenses that they must endure to avoid losing everything?

Does this indicate that we have lost track of the important things and now we believe that it's okay to persecute people have never been charged with a crime?

Is this simply a convenient way to keep "the trough" full?

What ever happened to "innocent until proven guilty?"
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Re: State endorsed theft or justice? (13 Mar, 2017)

Postby par_annoyed » Mon Mar 13, 2017 8:03 am

This quote from the Daily Mail gives away the true intent......"This is about equipping our police with the resources they need to take down major criminals. "
So yet again - it's all about the money. From what I see this (again) is a copy of what the US has been doing for a while, the seizure of assets to fund their operations.
But the big danger is that it does indeed turn around the justice system so that you have to prove you are innocent.

There are always crims who a clever enough to rort the justice system just like the people, this is NOT the way to deal with it, as it will catch too many innocent citizens.
How the hell do you prove all your money is from 'legit' sources ?
Another step on the slippery slope.....
Nothing to fear, nothing to hide ? Yeah, provided you don't have any assets whatsoever.....
War is peace. Freedom is slavery. China is our friend. We are at war with the Americas....we have always been at war..... (Oops - That's next week)
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Re: State endorsed theft or justice? (13 Mar, 2017)

Postby aardvark_admin » Mon Mar 13, 2017 8:18 am

par_annoyed wrote:This quote from the Daily Mail gives away the true intent......"This is about equipping our police with the resources they need to take down major criminals. "

Yet, strangely enough, if they simply made Vodafone, Facebook, Google and a few other multinationals pay their fair share of tax, they'd have several orders of magnitude more in the coffers than can be gleaned by selling the assets of alleged criminals.

But then again... there are criminals and "criminals" aren't there?
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Re: State endorsed theft or justice? (13 Mar, 2017)

Postby Weasel » Mon Mar 13, 2017 9:36 am

Driving down the freeway home yesterday, limit is 60mph, I was doing 70, cop parked on the grassy bit in the middle with their laser/radar gun or what ever pointing out the window, they didn't even flinch and neither did anyone else. Shows you how redonkulous its gotten in other countries.
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Re: State endorsed theft or justice? (13 Mar, 2017)

Postby NoBodyInParticular » Mon Mar 13, 2017 12:15 pm

Unfortunately, we (in the west) have experienced a subtle bait and switch. The 'Justice System' has been cleverly substituted with (or morphed into) a 'Legal System' where penalties are now viewed as revenue and it no longer recognizes justice apart from the branding label and impression it still leverages.
While many social distractions have been blowing around over the last 40 years (global warming, oil supply, America's cup, RWC, anti-smacking bill, flag debates etc..) there has been a gradual introduction and tweaking of so called 'greater good' proposals (UN treaties, Carbon Tax and OSH rules....).
These are changes that impact our personal and national sovereignty and will have a profound affect on the future of our society, but not for our advantage as individuals, it is to the advantage of corporations (or more accurately, those that profit from them).
Back in the day, if we worked for a company we were classed as 'personnel', now we are just human resources.
We certainly live in interesting times.
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Re: State endorsed theft or justice? (13 Mar, 2017)

Postby phill » Mon Mar 13, 2017 11:27 pm

a few things in this that need closer scrutiny ( change )

the basic bit where those that fuel the criminal industry pay a far higher price than at present ( those that buy / buy and sell , stolen goods ) is a leap in the right direction

the ¨ proceeds " of this should go no where else than victim support and compensation ( thats real support and real compensation .. not just another excuse to hire people at 100$ an hour to hand out dollar cons and 2 bit advice )

anyone that thinks he got anywhere near those assets via declared income income from a second hand store him and his wife ran is smoking some unobtainable quality stuff
a lot would have have been fenced stuff and the rest probably undeclared taxable sales


and sorry .. but i only bought 50% of that stuff with drug / undeclared / dirty money is tough titties
the champagne lifestyle would have been more than adequate for the rest
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Re: State endorsed theft or justice? (13 Mar, 2017)

Postby peterh » Sun Mar 19, 2017 8:12 am

Shouldn't it be on the State to prove property didn't come from honest gain before it is taken?
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Re: State endorsed theft or justice? (13 Mar, 2017)

Postby phill » Sun Mar 19, 2017 1:26 pm

the state has already proven that illegal activity for profit has taken place
by virtue of the court case
and that there is a discrepancy between outgoings and declared income
and unless the verdict is guilty all assets are returned or left alone


we are only arguing how much the govt can take or if you like how much the criminals can keep
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Re: State endorsed theft or justice? (13 Mar, 2017)

Postby aardvark_admin » Sun Mar 19, 2017 3:46 pm

phill wrote:the state has already proven that illegal activity for profit has taken place
by virtue of the court case
and that there is a discrepancy between outgoings and declared income
and unless the verdict is guilty all assets are returned or left alone

we are only arguing how much the govt can take or if you like how much the criminals can keep

But that's not always the case.

The POC Act allows goods to be forfeit even when no charges have been laid -- therefore, on the basis of "innocent until proven guilty", it becomes theft by the state.

I've got no problems with relieving criminals of their ill-gotten gains but these things must have checks and balances to ensure that innocent people aren't victimised by police (think Arthur Allan Thomas and many others). The problem is that if the cops seize all your assets, how do you get a *decent* lawyer and accountant to help you prove that those assets were purchased by legally earned money?

The deck is highly stacked against the innocent person and there is no oversight. Such situations are always going to be the subject of abuse by those little Hitlers who think "what good is power if we can't abuse it?"
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Re: State endorsed theft or justice? (13 Mar, 2017)

Postby phill » Sun Mar 19, 2017 3:59 pm

aardvark_admin wrote:The POC Act allows goods to be forfeit even when no charges have been laid --


in that case i stand corrected
i had no idea the abuse of the legal system had gone that far
i had no idea it ever would
time for this to become headlines not bylines

i always knew that slut was open to whatever the cops gave her .. but had no idea she was being gang shafted for fun
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