Pot, kettle, black (7 Jul, 2017)

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Re: Pot, kettle, black (7 Jul, 2017)

Postby Malcolm » Fri Jul 07, 2017 2:25 pm

JonL wrote:Yet many say the Emperor was going to surrender. They were used to send a message to Soviet Union, even though the Soviets were not interested in "expanding their control" Eastern Europe was being used as a buffer against further attacks. Just as Putin's Russia has no desire to invade anyone with all the problems that brings.

Tell that to the Ukraine, and Georgia, and anyone else they considered to be part of the old Russian empire.
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Re: Pot, kettle, black (7 Jul, 2017)

Postby Muscular Jam » Fri Jul 07, 2017 2:38 pm

Weasel wrote:Paulw is quite correct, Japan wasnt going to give up, they wanted the Pacific and were not going to stop, it took two nukes to convince them otherwise in the end.
That opinion is common, but doesn't have a lot of data to support it. Japan had already asked the neutral Soviets to mediate a peace deal before receiving the Potsdam declaration. Records show that of the top 3, Cabinet Secretary Sakomizu wanted to accept the potsdam declaration, and the prime minster Suzuki and Foreign Minister Tōgō were sympathetic, but Tōgō advised the Emperor to wait for the soviets to respond to their request for mediation. The Emperor agreed but said that the potsdam declaration was acceptable in principle. Instead of replying the soviets abandoned their Neutrality Treaty with Japan and invaded Manchukuo. Many historians consider the surrender was more influenced by the betrayal of the soviets than the nuclear weapons.
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Re: Pot, kettle, black (7 Jul, 2017)

Postby phill » Fri Jul 07, 2017 2:49 pm

ahh history
even an event that is so well documented and recent has so many translations of truth

makes me wonder if there was even any point to reading older historical facts
( ,,,,,,,, ....... A E I O U use em sparingly theres probably not enough )

i might live and eat in a sewer .. but hey look how many of these shiney things i have got
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Re: Pot, kettle, black (7 Jul, 2017)

Postby Muscular Jam » Fri Jul 07, 2017 3:10 pm

phill wrote:ahh history
even an event that is so well documented and recent has so many translations of truth

makes me wonder if there was even any point to reading older historical facts

I don't agree. That the bombs were dropped on August 6 & 9 August 1945 are facts that no one in this thread has denied. I also doubt that anybody would deny the Soviet invasion of Manchuko also occurred on 9 August 1945 or the Japanese Surrender six days later on 15 August. What we are debating is not the facts but our interpretations of the facts, and counterfactuals, like what might have happened if one of those facts had not occurred.

PS, if anyone would be interested in another opinion of why the bombs were dropped and whether it was really necessary they might find this NSA document of interest:
https://www.nsa.gov/news-features/declassified-documents/tech-journals/assets/files/mokusatsu.pdf
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Re: Pot, kettle, black (7 Jul, 2017)

Postby phill » Fri Jul 07, 2017 3:53 pm

i have heard it stated that japan offered surrender terms but never unconditional surrender
the terms were ... "the emperor would remain in power and never be held to face the consequences of japanese actions" ( the same terms they eventually agreed to )

that hiroshima was not bombed with conventional weapons for some time before the atomic attack so they could better analyze bomb damage after an atomic attack ( bda )

the projected loss for an invasion would be 2 million allies
and up to 95% of the japanese population ( 95 million ) ( worked on the progressively lowering surrender rates from the solomons to okinawa* ( *where there were exceptionally high civilian suicides as well ) )

and after some investigation this morning i found more than a few alternative facts .. not necessarily those espoused here .. although there were enough to show alternative truths
( ,,,,,,,, ....... A E I O U use em sparingly theres probably not enough )

i might live and eat in a sewer .. but hey look how many of these shiney things i have got
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Re: Pot, kettle, black (7 Jul, 2017)

Postby Muscular Jam » Fri Jul 07, 2017 4:15 pm

phill wrote:alternative facts
"You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means" :lol:
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Re: Pot, kettle, black (7 Jul, 2017)

Postby phill » Fri Jul 07, 2017 4:27 pm

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alternative_facts
only read the first paragraph but that agreed with my interpretation

i am trying the subtle approach to life and trying not to use words like bullshit, lying prick and bill englishized
( ,,,,,,,, ....... A E I O U use em sparingly theres probably not enough )

i might live and eat in a sewer .. but hey look how many of these shiney things i have got
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Re: Pot, kettle, black (7 Jul, 2017)

Postby Muscular Jam » Fri Jul 07, 2017 5:56 pm

phill wrote:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alternative_facts
only read the first paragraph but that agreed with my interpretation
I loved Todd's response, "Look, alternative facts are not facts. They're falsehoods."
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Re: Pot, kettle, black (7 Jul, 2017)

Postby Screw » Fri Jul 07, 2017 9:10 pm

Japan was in the process of surrendering, yes they wanted the Emperor to survive but that wasn't the only reason. The Russians were moving down from the Kurols and the Allies were moving up from the south. They were well aware that it was a no-win situation for them.

Hiroshima was a warning to Russia but mostly the Yanx wanted to see what kind of damage the bomb would do both to the city and most importantly, the population. It's a sobering sight to visit the shrine at Ground Zero. The gravel on the ground has been melted together and looks like coloured glass!

Nagasaki was the first crude Hydrogen Bomb.

By 1949 Russia had the bomb and the crazy Arms Race followed.

N.K. isn't going to do anything, they know that they lack the firepower.

As for Ukraine have a close look at what the Yanx were up to there. They made a deal with Russia to not put NATO up to the border and then broke the deal(usual for the bloody Yanx). War is big business to the them.
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Re: Pot, kettle, black (7 Jul, 2017)

Postby A Bradford » Fri Jul 07, 2017 10:51 pm

Bruce, I enjoy your column every day and even though left wing ideas appear occasionally – I am neither left nor right but I am anti Postmodernist – I totally respect your right as an individual to your opinion and always find you column thought provoking, every day. You are looked-up to and have influence.

But here is an anti-postmodernists view in reply to your column today.

Yes, the USA can be trusted and No, North Korea can't. Let’s quickly look at the deaths you mention. The number of people killed by their own government: Democratic = 2 million, Authoritarian = 29 million, Totalitarian = 138 million, or killed by international war: Democratic = 4.4 million, Authoritarian = 15.3 million and Totalitarian = 14.4 million makes it abundantly clear that, yes, the USA can be trusted and North Korea… well maybe no. There may be little evidence of NK meddling on other countries politics or attacking other countries but you can be sure they would if they could. After all, they have no qualms kidnapping people from mainland Japan or killing people in South Korea or sending people to gulags to certain death. So, is the fact that the west kills their own people really significant enough to nullify the wests position or to suggest that we are somehow as bad as them? Just how clean do your hands have to be? 2 million is bad but 167 million is positively murderous.

Yes, we do respect NK’s sovereign rights and it helps that we don't care about their people enough to put our young men's lives at risk. We care more about whales than we do the starving oppressed ordinary North Koreans. We did the same when Communists killed six million people in Cambodia. We just stood by and let it happen. So, given socialist history, there is a very strong argument to go into North Korea today – jack boots and all – and free the people. In fact it could be argued that the USA, being the preeminent democratic society, has a moral duty to do so.
And now that NK have stated that they can now reach Australia, just how long will it be before they can reach Auckland, a significant western city? Should we stop them before Auckland becomes a viable target? That seems like a good idea. But how are we going to prove the risk is real or just propaganda? Are North Korea’s “weapons of mass destruction” actually real and actually there? Just how much proof is enough? What if we leave it until it’s too late? Maybe it really is best to pre-emptively strike. But in the face of what might be very real threat to us and aware of the plight of the NK people we choose to do nothing because we respect their sovereign rights.

And just maybe North Korea do have a rocket that will reach Auckland. Shouldn’t we at the very least have some very stern words with North Korea and suggest “convincingly” that that would be a bad idea? Imagine how tricky that is to get right. Perhaps that is what Trump is trying to do.

It should not be assumed that when a country goes to war they want to win. That’s a dangerous assumption. There is very good evidence that Stalin was planning on “going out with a bang” and he was very possibly murdered to prevent it. China plans to go fully democratic in thirty years, so just where does that leave North Korea? They may be intending to go out with a bang too. Who knows. From totalitarian rage to nihilism is a short step. As Friedrich Nietzsche noted in Daybreak:

"When some men fail to accomplish what they desire to do they exclaim angrily, "May the whole world perish!" This repulsive emotion is the pinnacle of envy, whose implication is "If I cannot have something, no one can have anything, no one is to be anything.""

Communism and any other form of socialism you care to mention is murderous and should be prevented from spreading and preferably eradicated (non-violently of course, Reagan style) from the face of the earth. Socialism never has the high moral ground or any moral ground whatsoever to stand on and the history of the twentieth century proved that beyond doubt. We are apples and oranges. Are we as you say demonstrating hypocrisy and are both sides just as bad as each other? No, definitely not, communism is a special case.

So fluffy pillows and winner takes all eh? I sure hope Trump has a brick in his pillow because Kim sure will. If Kim wins there “will” be collateral damage and I’ll be one of many off to the gulag, Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn went for writing far less than I have written here.
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