Censorship or education? - which way to go (21 Aug, 2017)

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Censorship or education? - which way to go (21 Aug, 2017)

Postby aardvark_admin » Mon Aug 21, 2017 9:59 am

This column is archived at: http://aardvark.co.nz/daily/2017/0821.shtml

Should we give up the right to free speech (by way of censorship) in order to protect the vulnerable from the opinions of those with whom we do not agree?

If we do accept censorship for this purpose, how do we control those who set the standard for what is "acceptable"?

Are we giving away too much if we allow others to censor what we can and can't read? Might we be far better advised to educate everyone to the point where they can see for themselves what is acceptable and what is not?

Or is that something that governments will simply throw into the "too hard" basket (and usually, if you peel the "too hard" label off, you'll find another one underneath that says "can't be bothered").
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Re: Censorship or education? - which way to go (21 Aug, 2017

Postby phill » Mon Aug 21, 2017 10:12 am

have to agree with you

with the addition of
an open pot simmering away is not that big a problem ( open hatred released and debated )
or
screw the top down on the pressure cooker ( censorship ) brings the old saying ... what could possibly go wrong

stopping people being heard or making them say what you want them to is never going to work for long
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Re: Censorship or education? - which way to go (21 Aug, 2017

Postby GSVNoFixedAbode » Mon Aug 21, 2017 10:17 am

Tolerating those who preach intolerance breeds intolerance. If it is allowed then it must be be countered by equal if not louder discussions on tolerance at the same time.

Then again, allow them their local soapbox in the community square, but also allow others the choice to not propagate said intolerance: eg 'nope, we're not going to host your websites'
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Re: Censorship or education? - which way to go (21 Aug, 2017

Postby paulw » Mon Aug 21, 2017 10:35 am

Always amazes me that when a white person say "White power" they're labeled racists but when a black or brown person says "Black power" they're called enlightened and showing their culture.. Just look at the Maori gangs here with Black power patches on them.

Any one notice that the Australia government has decided to block access to torrent sites. http://www.bbc.com/news/technology-40976600
Short edge of the wedge. Today torrent sites tomorrow sites that may be counter to government policy..
Maybe they haven't heard of DNS or VPNs.
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Re: Censorship or education? - which way to go (21 Aug, 2017

Postby Malcolm » Mon Aug 21, 2017 10:46 am

paulw wrote:Always amazes me that when a white person say "White power" they're labeled racists but when a black or brown person says "Black power" they're called enlightened and showing their culture.. Just look at the Maori gangs here with Black power patches on them.


That is because context is very important it isn't just a couple of words in a vacuum, there is a lot of history, culture and expectations attached to it. The people yelling White Power are usually the skinheads/racists/neo-nazis etc. Where as the Black power call evokes the era civil rights Martin Luther King Jnr, Malcolm X, Huey Newton. Sure in NZ we have a criminal gang with the same name but very few people outside of NZ will make that connection.
Anyone trying to equate the two is being tone deaf.
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Re: Censorship or education? - which way to go (21 Aug, 2017

Postby roygbiv » Mon Aug 21, 2017 12:56 pm

paulw wrote:
Any one notice that the Australia government has decided to block access to torrent sites. http://www.bbc.com/news/technology-40976600
Short edge of the wedge. Today torrent sites tomorrow sites that may be counter to government policy..
Maybe they haven't heard of DNS or VPNs.


This is a different issue, more to do with the theft of intellectual property (films) than the censorship of extreme views and opinions.

Back on subject, the line of least resistance is to go toward censorship and restrictions to freedom of speech. Very easy to apply by those in charge and able to claim moral high ground etc etc. Education is the solution, especially to those who may be more easily influenced and can be exploited by others of very ill intent. But, how do you educate those who do not want to be educated, who inward looking and cannot see other perspectives. It would take a long time to educate such people to make informed opinions. The idealist and correct solution is education, but the pragmatic and instant fix will be censorship.
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Re: Censorship or education? - which way to go (21 Aug, 2017

Postby hagfish » Mon Aug 21, 2017 1:11 pm

Malcolm wrote:
paulw wrote:Always amazes me that when a white person say "White power" they're labeled racists but when a black or brown person says "Black power" they're called enlightened and showing their culture.. Just look at the Maori gangs here with Black power patches on them.


That is because context is very important it isn't just a couple of words in a vacuum, there is a lot of history, culture and expectations attached to it. The people yelling White Power are usually the skinheads/racists/neo-nazis etc. Where as the Black power call evokes the era civil rights Martin Luther King Jnr, Malcolm X, Huey Newton. Sure in NZ we have a criminal gang with the same name but very few people outside of NZ will make that connection.
Anyone trying to equate the two is being tone deaf.


'White' people can still be proud of being 'a bit Scottish', or celebrate their Russian grandmother or whatever, but 'white pride' is inextricably tied up with disenfranchised-feeling people of Caucasian descent, who feel like their privileges are being eroded. Certainly, their privileged position *is* being eroded, but in general, it's not because of brown people - it's because of other (more) privileged people. They don't have to like it, but parading about with Nazi flags and tiki torches is not helping them.

There's no denying that a large number of people are very upset. We can wrangle about why and what's to be done, but they feel genuinely aggrieved. Telling them they're a bunch of deplorable rednecks and shutting down their Twitters will do sod all.

If the marching Nazis could find something other than their skin pigmentation to feel 'proud' of, it would be a start.

In general, I prefer 'freedom to', rather than 'freedom from'. No debate can happen if either side has no voice.
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Re: Censorship or education? - which way to go (21 Aug, 2017

Postby par_annoyed » Mon Aug 21, 2017 1:58 pm

Speaking as a privileged white Anglo-Saxon Pom ..... in reality from the worst council estate in Europe (in Manchester).

This is really complicated and thorny.

Personally I think the line between 'hate speech' and genuine inquiry is VERY difficult. For example - is it really true that the Germans killed 6 million Jews or is it less, or is it more ? Just asking that question will get you labelled today, when it may well be a genuine historical question. I believe that people should be allowed to represent their views even if they are hateful and disgusting to others. Why ? Because censorship is worse, and starts the slippery slope down to total control. Why can't mankind openly discuss sensitive topics without them being labelled as some sort of terrorist ? I don't agree that words should be banned either. That's not to say they are OK as an insult however.

But today, all the 'sensitive' rubbish about gender, race, sexual orientation, colour, religion, etc. makes me think it's actually the PC brigade finally showing their fascist control tendencies. Positive discrimination is now rife, and as a white English straight man, I'm now at the bottom of the pile for nearly everything (according to those PC principles, I must be some sort of evil monster already). Can I start going around arguing about 'white rights' ? Definitely not. I'd get labelled as a KKK supporter. I need not say any more, I think it proves the point
Last edited by par_annoyed on Mon Aug 21, 2017 2:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Censorship or education? - which way to go (21 Aug, 2017

Postby aardvark_admin » Mon Aug 21, 2017 2:02 pm

par_annoyed wrote:Can I start going around arguing about 'white rights' ? Definitely not. I need not say any more, I think it proves the point

Nah... you must be one of those "White Supremacist types eh?" :shock:
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Re: Censorship or education? - which way to go (21 Aug, 2017

Postby par_annoyed » Mon Aug 21, 2017 2:04 pm

I had just amended my previous post to say that more or less, and they crossed. So we agree there !

I think also that NZ stuff like the Maori electoral roll, and Maori seats are simply institutionalised racism. I see no reason why elections should be split in such a way.
Either we are all one NZ, or we are not.

Now if we look back, there's plenty of abuse given out by the white race to others. But then we whites aren't alone, are we ? Lots of other races, creeds, have had their followers massacre many who would not surrender, black, brown and yellow. Genocide is unfortunately one of those little things that all mankind keeps as a dirty secret, all races and all creeds.

There's lots of 'gender abuse' (to separate it from 'sexual abuse' which has a specific meaning) around too. Muslim may be the everyday prime example, but it's not alone in regarding women as somehow inferior and/or limited what they can and cannot do. I also feel for gay people in Muslim countries (and other religions too), they must have a hell of a difficult time, both men and women.

NONE of this is right. But then I consider the PC brigade to be wrong as well. Sure, highlight the issues, that's good. But DON'T then start saying 'blacks only' or 'women only' in the same breath, it completely destroys your whole argument. (IMHO)
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