Why EVs might cripple New Zealand (23 May, 2018)

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Re: Why EVs might cripple New Zealand (23 May, 2018)

Postby Kiwiiano » Wed May 23, 2018 11:36 am

Have you guys forgotten the fully operating nuclear fusion reactor that floats overhead every day? Not only can we extract energy from its direct output, its presence ensures that the atmosphere is in constant motion, allowing us to extract useful energy already. Plus its gravitational mass combines with the Moon, to cause the oceans to rise and fall twice daily producing prodigious flows of water through Cook Strait. The energy potential there is still under investigation but will probably stay on the back burner until demand exceeds Manapouri’s output. Countries at similar latitudes to the Auckland Islands are making good use of the reactors direct output so it is insane that NZ isn’t doing the same. I guess nothing much will happen there until demand rises above our current capacity and panic sets in.
Last edited by Kiwiiano on Wed May 23, 2018 12:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Why EVs might cripple New Zealand (23 May, 2018)

Postby aardvark_admin » Wed May 23, 2018 11:54 am

Kiwiiano wrote:I guess nothing much will happen there until demand rises above our current capacity and panic sets in.

This is exactly the problem... we seem to have governments that don't plan for long-term, sustainable policy... they are almost entirely *reactive* and thus driven by events rather than goals.

I can honestly forsee a return to the "carless days" of the 1970s when our demand for electricity (thanks to an EV fleet) exceeds our generation capabilities.

Renewables are great -- but aside from tidal energy, they're not wholly consistent in their output. Solar is dependent on the position and visibility of the sun, wind is dependent on -- you guessed it... the wind strength and even tidal has a sinusoudal energy profile when mapped against time -- and when the energy-null coincides with peak demand, you've got problems trying to charge an entire city's EVs overnight.
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Re: Why EVs might cripple New Zealand (23 May, 2018)

Postby phill » Wed May 23, 2018 12:31 pm

until we promote research engineers .. or researchers in general to being politicians
instead of continuing to draw politicians from the finance and law sectors ( mainly )
you will not be able to change how entrenched paper warriors think and act
snivel servants do not put there heads up with new ideas they carry on being grey and nondescript to avoid anyone realising how far past the peter principal they have gone
if anyone was to seriously write down what qualifications would make for the best politicians ( and snivel servants ) to run the country almost none ( being generous here ) of the present crop would make the list
you wanted baby kissers .. you got baby kissers
you wanted to hear only good news .. you only hear good news
( ,,,,,,,, ....... A E I O U use em sparingly theres probably not enough )

i might live and eat in a sewer .. but hey look how many of these shiney things i have got
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Re: Why EVs might cripple New Zealand (23 May, 2018)

Postby Kiwiiano » Wed May 23, 2018 1:01 pm

aardvark_admin wrote:Renewables are great -- but aside from tidal energy, they're not wholly consistent in their output. Solar is dependent on the position and visibility of the sun, wind is dependent on -- you guessed it... the wind strength and even tidal has a sinusoudal energy profile when mapped against time -- and when the energy-null coincides with peak demand, you've got problems trying to charge an entire city's EVs overnight.

If we had a distributed network of renewables, their inconsistencies are likely to be out of phase. It may not be sunny in Auckland but there’s a gale blowing in Nelson. Meanwhile the hydro resources can be conserved and as renewable output drops, more hydro comes on stream, there’s nothing like the delays inherent in coal or the down times for nuclear.
It might be feasible for Fouveaux Strait to combine with Cook, their tides are neatly out of sync, although Fouveaux is too shallow for the turbines envisaged for Cook. Whatever....horses for courses.
It’s also feasible for domestic EV chargers to be managed by ripple relay, turning them on as the demands from others diminish. In fact they’re planning for the car batteries to be storage for feeding back into the grid if required, along with the recycled car batteries attached to domestic PV solar panels.
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Re: Why EVs might cripple New Zealand (23 May, 2018)

Postby Malcolm » Wed May 23, 2018 1:11 pm

Kiwiiano wrote:
aardvark_admin wrote:Renewables are great -- but aside from tidal energy, they're not wholly consistent in their output. Solar is dependent on the position and visibility of the sun, wind is dependent on -- you guessed it... the wind strength and even tidal has a sinusoudal energy profile when mapped against time -- and when the energy-null coincides with peak demand, you've got problems trying to charge an entire city's EVs overnight.

If we had a distributed network of renewables, their inconsistencies are likely to be out of phase. It may not be sunny in Auckland but there’s a gale blowing in Nelson. Meanwhile the hydro resources can be conserved and as renewable output drops, more hydro comes on stream, there’s nothing like the delays inherent in coal or the down times for nuclear.
It might be feasible for Fouveaux Strait to combine with Cook, their tides are neatly out of sync, although Fouveaux is too shallow for the turbines envisaged for Cook. Whatever....horses for courses.
It’s also feasible for domestic EV chargers to be managed by ripple relay, turning them on as the demands from others diminish. In fact they’re planning for the car batteries to be storage for feeding back into the grid if required, along with the recycled car batteries attached to domestic PV solar panels.


There is currently a lot of interest in this among the lines companies. Looking to use smart meters and smart relays to allow more fine-grained control. Even allowing the consumer to say no really charge the car right now and I will pay a peak rate. Or else leave it and allow the grid to manage the load and charge my car at an off peak rate. This is for when you come home with 5% charge and need to be going again soon.
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Re: Why EVs might cripple New Zealand (23 May, 2018)

Postby Stevesub » Wed May 23, 2018 1:33 pm

In OZ, we pay 26c/kwh for peak power, 22c/kwh for our pool which has power all day except 5pm to 9pm, 17c/kwh for hot water which is on only 8 hours during the night and they pay us 55c/kwh for the solar we sell to the power company - and in our area, the power stations are run on coal.

In our NZ house in Northland and admittedly we are on a low user plan because we are not there a lot, we pay 43c/kwh.

Who is being ripped off by whom???
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Re: Why EVs might cripple New Zealand (23 May, 2018)

Postby phord » Wed May 23, 2018 1:51 pm

I foresee the day when everyone will experience random power cuts throughout the day and night.
Battery banks will only be sufficient for lighting.

The India population lives with intermittent electricity, why should we be any different.

We will fondly remember the days of reliable 24/7 power.
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Re: Why EVs might cripple New Zealand (23 May, 2018)

Postby joeseph » Wed May 23, 2018 2:25 pm

I sometimes wonder about the feasability of modular battery-packs for EV's where you could leave one pack at home attached to some solar panels or other system gathering charge while car is off doing it's transport role.
Given a lot of cars in our neck of the woods just do a run to peoples' place of work, park all day & then come home again, could possibly be helpful.
Would need to be really easy to swap in & out or else the inconvenience factor would put people off.
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Re: Why EVs might cripple New Zealand (23 May, 2018)

Postby aardvark_admin » Wed May 23, 2018 2:32 pm

joeseph wrote:I sometimes wonder about the feasability of modular battery-packs for EV's where you could leave one pack at home attached to some solar panels or other system gathering charge while car is off doing it's transport role.
Given a lot of cars in our neck of the woods just do a run to peoples' place of work, park all day & then come home again, could possibly be helpful.
Would need to be really easy to swap in & out or else the inconvenience factor would put people off.

Yep, this is (IMHO) the key to creating a distinctive EV system that is also attractive to the consumer.

Just as most people now "swappa bottle" for their BBQ LPG needs, "swappa battery" would be a great approach to the whole EV situation.

One of the big concerns that many would-be EV buyers will have is "what if the battery fails?" -- and the costs that could arise from that.

A system whereby you don't actually own the battery -- but simply rent it, would remove that fear and effectively spread the cost of replacement over the entire lifetime of the unit.

Instead of paying (say) $2.50 to recharge your battery, you'd pay $5 to swap your flat battery for a full-charged one which would be guaranteed to have at least 90% capacity and be qualified for the next swap.

Swapping batteries also overcomes the other complaint -- the time taken to refuel your EV. "Swappa battery" could be done in under a minute -- versus the 20-40 minutes required for a full recharge at a fast-charge station or the overnight time for a slow recharge.

Also, a swappable battery system could effectively provide significantly lower purchase price for the EV itself -- since you wouldn't be buying a battery, only leasing/renting it. The capital cost of going EV would be that much lower and the very significant difference in the per-Km energy cost to run the EV versus fossil-fueled vehicles would allow plenty of margin to build in the lease/rent fee in each "swap".
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Re: Why EVs might cripple New Zealand (23 May, 2018)

Postby Malcolm » Wed May 23, 2018 4:20 pm

I don't know how a swap will go given that a 40kWH battery pack is going to be on the order of 200KG.
Also I think there are concerns over how the average motorist will handle connecting/disconnecting a high voltage DC power source. Usually it isn't something they will let the general public near and have special certifications for handling such things.
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