You know the media is lost when... (11 Dec, 2018)

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Re: You know the media is lost when... (11 Dec, 2018)

Postby par_annoyed » Tue Dec 11, 2018 4:35 pm

The absolute worst phrase to hear when dealing with anything like this - "the science is settled".
I may be a skeptic (not about the warming itself, but as above, whether it's actually caused by our CO2 emissions), but what REALLY gets to me is the 'closed mind' viewpoint expressed about quite a few things.
Science is ALWAYS "the best guess we have right now" and "well this rule seems to work so far...."
It's not just climate change, it's many things. It's NOT SCIENTIFICALLY VALID to claim a 'proof' on a theoretical model.....even if it appears to work, it only takes ONE EXCEPTION to destroy it.

If you aren't prepared to hear other viewpoints or theories (even if they seem quite crazy at first) then you will never learn ANYTHING.
so Stuff is WRONG !!

But perhaps it's me - for example, that fateful day when I saw the first of the two towers collapse, my thoughts were instantly "That isn't right....that looks as if it's been demolished, and it's all fallen in its own footprint...... THAT DOESN'T FIT with a plane collision and an unplanned collapse....." So even today, I wonder. Does that make me a conspiracy nut ?? Or just another cynic with an open (and suspicious) viewpoint ???

Given the way we are being spied on, and watched via the web, and cameras and our mobile phones, etc, I wouldn't be surprised if Stuff too are now government mouthpieces....

Yeah, I'll stop there....
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Re: You know the media is lost when... (11 Dec, 2018)

Postby phill » Tue Dec 11, 2018 4:46 pm

prior to 4 weeks ago i would have agreed with you without question

but at that time i joined a vaping forum to learn more about the ups downs ins and outs of it
all the usa forums and sites i had been on before were predominantly democrat and very politically moderate
the vaping underground site was a huge ( read frighteningly ginormous ) introduction to the pro trump pro conspiracy pro global cooling brigade
any comment deemed to be slightly against any of those views is taken as an invite to a flame war .. and vigorously taken up
i eventually joined a far more moderate vape forum ( e-cigarette forum )
but they are pretty much the same views but nobody dares talk about any form of political or environmental subjects
as far as the members of those forums goes .. anyone that believes in global warming is a fool
( ,,,,,,,, ....... A E I O U use em sparingly theres probably not enough )

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Re: You know the media is lost when... (11 Dec, 2018)

Postby phill » Tue Dec 11, 2018 4:52 pm

par_annoyed wrote:But perhaps it's me - for example, that fateful day when I saw the first of the two towers collapse, my thoughts were instantly "That isn't right....that looks as if it's been demolished, and it's all fallen in its own footprint...... THAT DOESN'T FIT with a plane collision and an unplanned collapse....." So even today, I wonder. Does that make me a conspiracy nut ?? Or just another cynic with an open (and suspicious) viewpoint ???


Yeah, I'll stop there....


yup .. total nut job ( well you asked )
strangely gravity goes pretty much straight down
any side force from the aircraft hitting would have dissipated sometime in the 4 hours between the time they were hit and the time they came down
a simple check of the construction plans would tell you why they fell the way they did
( ,,,,,,,, ....... A E I O U use em sparingly theres probably not enough )

i might live and eat in a sewer .. but hey look how many of these shiney things i have got
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Re: You know the media is lost when... (11 Dec, 2018)

Postby Kiwiiano » Tue Dec 11, 2018 8:20 pm

aardvark_admin wrote:Of course I want investigation... but on a subject as technical as climate change, do you *really* think that Stuff has any journalists suitably qualified to sort the wheat from the chaff?

And what if a group of scientists (for instance) discovered that a slight spectral shift in sunlight is actually the primary driver of climate change and that a rise in CO2 levels is simply coincidental or perhaps a consequence of that change? Wouild stuff say "we're not printing that because we have decided that climate change *is* man-made"?


Well, firstly the group of scientists would need credibility (not an Emeritus Professor of Ornithology making sweeping claims about astrophysics) their findings would not only have to explain why the spectral shift was driving the change but also explain away the well-established thermal qualities of the known amounts of CO2 plus the observed drop in energy being radiated into space as measured by the satellites. There are probably several other aspects that would need tidying as well since our knowledge in climate science is buttressed by findings and measurements in dozens of other disciplines. Extraordinary claims must be accompanied by extraordinary proof.
Last edited by Kiwiiano on Tue Dec 11, 2018 8:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: You know the media is lost when... (11 Dec, 2018)

Postby Muscular Jam » Tue Dec 11, 2018 8:20 pm

aardvark_admin wrote:but on a subject as technical as climate change, do you *really* think that Stuff has any journalists suitably qualified to sort the wheat from the chaff?
Heck no, they should rely on people who know what they are talking about for that, such as articles published in peer reviewed jorunals.
aardvark_admin wrote:And what if a group of scientists (for instance) discovered that a slight spectral shift in sunlight is actually the primary driver of climate change and that a rise in CO2 levels is simply coincidental or perhaps a consequence of that change? Wouild stuff say "we're not printing that because we have decided that climate change *is* man-made"?
Don't misunderstand me, The history of Earth's climate is incredibly complex and new discoveries are happening all the time. Only last month a crater was discovered in Greenland suggesting that the Younger Dryas cooling period was probably triggered by a meteorite. see for example https://www.sciencenews.org/article/imp ... nger-dryas
But Stuff didn't say they would not be reporting new scientific discoveries. They said they do not intend to provide an avenue for denialism or hoax advocacy. Those who advocate denialism or that it is a hoax are not publishing scientific papers, their "advocacy" is FUD propaganda. They are on the same level as Flat Earthers as far as I am concerned. Fantasy vs fact as you called it. Stuff should stick to facts, and leave the fantasy to facebook and youtube where it is unfortunately rife.
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Re: You know the media is lost when... (11 Dec, 2018)

Postby Kiwiiano » Tue Dec 11, 2018 8:43 pm

par_annoyed wrote:The absolute worst phrase to hear when dealing with anything like this - "the science is settled".
I may be a skeptic (not about the warming itself, but as above, whether it's actually caused by our CO2 emissions), but what REALLY gets to me is the 'closed mind' viewpoint expressed about quite a few things.
Science is ALWAYS "the best guess we have right now" and "well this rule seems to work so far...."
It's not just climate change, it's many things. It's NOT SCIENTIFICALLY VALID to claim a 'proof' on a theoretical model.....even if it appears to work, it only takes ONE EXCEPTION to destroy it.


“The science is settled” is shorthand for “our knowledge on the subject is well established, is confirmed from multiple studies, fits the knowledge of other aspects and in other disciplines, etc etc.” You’re right that nothing is ever totally, absolutely settled but almost all of our current knowledge of just about every science, technology, engineering and maths is built on the shoulders of the giants who went before and a good basis for assuming that’s the way it is. If we questioned chemical reactions, computers, bridges and trigonometry the way we reject findings that might inconvenience us, we would still be freezing in caves. Sure we can and should investigate everything and anything further but don’t choose to ignore warnings, especially when they are dire. If Eisenhower had refused to launch D Day until he knew the precise warp and weft thread count of Hitler’s underpants he would still be bobbing about in the English Channel.
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Re: You know the media is lost when... (11 Dec, 2018)

Postby Hiro Protagonist » Thu Dec 13, 2018 10:27 am

par_annoyed wrote:The absolute worst phrase to hear when dealing with anything like this - "the science is settled".
I may be a skeptic (not about the warming itself, but as above, whether it's actually caused by our CO2 emissions), but what REALLY gets to me is the 'closed mind' viewpoint expressed about quite a few things.

So here we are, standing on the tracks while a speeding train is heading towards us[1], and instead of getting off the tracks, we're having an argument about how it might just be possible that it's really an optical illusion coming towards us, and we can't PROVE with 110% certainty that while it looks like a train, and sounds like a train, it actually is a train, and anyway, what if jumping off the tracks means I don't get to drive my gas-guzzling SUV anymore, so maybe we better stay here because there's still a 0.0000001% chance someone's got it wrong and it's so much EFFORT to actually do something, compared to endless blathering about how we might not be in deep shit after all...

[1] Significant melting has been found in East Antarctica https://www.radionz.co.nz/news/world/378071/signs-of-significant-melting-in-east-antarctic-glaciers. If we can't stop that, we're hosed.
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Re: You know the media is lost when... (11 Dec, 2018)

Postby aardvark_admin » Thu Dec 13, 2018 12:06 pm

Hiro Protagonist wrote:[1] Significant melting has been found in East Antarctica https://www.radionz.co.nz/news/world/378071/signs-of-significant-melting-in-east-antarctic-glaciers. If we can't stop that, we're hosed.


But what about this: Big increase in Antarctic snowfall

It doesn't contradict the science but it shows that there are still many factors which are not yet properly understood or quantified.
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Re: You know the media is lost when... (11 Dec, 2018)

Postby Malcolm » Thu Dec 13, 2018 12:52 pm

The same article also states:
However, this mitigation is still swamped by the contribution to the height of the oceans from ice melt around the continent.

Also Antarctica is usually too cold for snow to form. It is classified as a desert because so little liquid or frozen water falls. And as the temperature around it increases the amount of moisture in the atmosphere increases which leads to more snow falling. So it isn't really a counter-argument
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Re: You know the media is lost when... (11 Dec, 2018)

Postby phill » Thu Dec 13, 2018 2:14 pm

The BAS researcher is keen to stress that the increases in snowfall do not contradict the observations of glacial retreat and thinning observed by satellites over the last 25 years. Although the extra snow since 1900 has worked to lower global sea level by about 0.04mm per decade, this is more than being countered by the ice lost to the oceans at Antarctica's margins, where warm water is melting the undersides of glaciers.

Dr Anna Hogg, from Leeds University, UK, uses radar satellites to measure the shape and mass of the ice sheet.

She told BBC News: "Even with these large snowfall events, Antarctica is still losing ice mass at a faster rate than it is gaining mass from snowfall, mainly due to the regions of known ice dynamic instability, such as in the Amundsen Sea Embayment which includes Pine Island and Thwaites glaciers.

"The Antarctic 4.3mm contribution to global sea level since about 1992 is still our best estimate."


all summarised in this bit
( ,,,,,,,, ....... A E I O U use em sparingly theres probably not enough )

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