A new oligopoly brewing? (10 Aug, 2020)

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Re: A new oligopoly brewing? (10 Aug, 2020)

Postby Ossified Location » Tue Aug 11, 2020 7:46 am

Perry wrote:Could it suggest that the gNats care more about housing tenants than the socio-commies?
Just to clarify, are you suggesting that there are 39,393 empty houses in Auckland because National cares about housing tenants? If so, could you please clarify the logic behind your suggestion? Or do you prefer hiding behind ad hominens and well-poisoning to providing any data or solutions yourself?

Also I did not single out National, I said "both major parties", so add strawman to the list of fallacies you managed to squeeze into your small post.
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Re: A new oligopoly brewing? (10 Aug, 2020)

Postby Ossified Location » Tue Aug 11, 2020 8:07 am

phord wrote:New houses are expensive due to the extremely high prices for building materials in NZ (one again due to a monopoly).
A duopoly according to this source, but yes I agree.

Building material costs alone are 20-30 % higher than in Australia. Housing and Urban Development Minister Phil Twyford pointed to an effective duopoly in suppliers in New Zealand and described the industry as rife with rorts and anti-competitive practices, sufficient for him to call for a market study investigation by the Commerce Commission.

If there are anti-competitive practices inflating building costs in this country, they need to be stamped out. New Zealanders deserve the best house they can buy for their money—paying for performance and durability, not for rebates and junkets designed to lock contractors into buying specific products.
https://sustainableengineering.co.nz/ph4nzsection1/


phord wrote:I have heard of people importing building materials for their new houses in shipping containers.

I had a builder do some work for me not long ago who told me that it was cheaper for him to import NZ timber back from Australia than it was for him to buy it locally. There is a long history of NZ businesses overcharging their fellow NZs in the absence of genuinely managed competition.
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Re: A new oligopoly brewing? (10 Aug, 2020)

Postby aardvark_admin » Tue Aug 11, 2020 8:28 am

Ossified Location wrote:I had a builder do some work for me not long ago who told me that it was cheaper for him to import NZ timber back from Australia than it was for him to buy it locally. There is a long history of NZ businesses overcharging their fellow NZs in the absence of genuinely managed competition.

Yep, I've got a mate in Aussie who can buy our timber from Bunnings much cheaper than I can buy the same timber here -- despite the shipping and whatever involved and taking into account the different currency values.

This is utterly outrageous -- so why have NONE of our politicians or parties taken any interest in fixing this issue?

If houses didn't cost so much to build, taxpayers wouldn't have to be handing out so much by way of housing supplements to the poor. Sounds like a great way to "launder" public money in to the hands of the "haves" after taking from the pockets of the "have-nots" to me.
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Re: A new oligopoly brewing? (10 Aug, 2020)

Postby Malcolm » Tue Aug 11, 2020 9:09 am

Ossified Location wrote:
phill wrote:the main reason we needed / need so many houses was because national flogged heaps of them off .. some to their mates
took the land that was in the best places and flogged that off .. mostly to their mates
Well yes, but also were you aware that according to the latest census there are 39,393 empty houses is Auckland? https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/proper ... ensus-2018
With returns on your investment like this who needs tenants causing wear and tear?

I think at one point the capital gains from rising house prices were netting more per week than could be gained from rental income. Having a tenant will give an increase in income but carries additional risk of maintenance and can complicate/slow down a sale process making it harder to realise those gains as cash. Probably especially true if it is being flicked around as part of a money laundering scheme.
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Re: A new oligopoly brewing? (10 Aug, 2020)

Postby aardvark_admin » Tue Aug 11, 2020 9:16 am

I've said for a very long time that NZ's reliance on the capital gains of property is crippling this nation's economy.

Money that could be invested in productive enterprise (that creates jobs and export receipts) gets tied up in unproductive (and often unused) houses and other property assets. We'll forever be a "poor" country with a widening gap between haves and have-nots so long as this continues and our entrepreneurs will continue to take their ideas, their energies and the opportunities they create offshore for lack of affordable VC here.

The problem is that we are now so addicted to property as an investment and nestegg that no government can afford to do *anything* that might harm property prices. Their own portfolios would be affected and they'd lose huge support from those heavily invested in property.

We hare hopelessly addicted and that addiction is crippling us :-(

Compare NZ to Singapore -- where the government owns all the land and you can only lease. A thriving economy with a huge GDP when compared to the resources NZ has.
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Re: A new oligopoly brewing? (10 Aug, 2020)

Postby phill » Tue Aug 11, 2020 9:26 am

aardvark_admin wrote:
Compare NZ to Singapore -- where the government owns all the land and you can only lease. A thriving economy with a huge GDP when compared to the resources NZ has.


how would that work out here
( ,,,,,,,, ....... A E I O U use em sparingly theres probably not enough )

i might live and eat in a sewer .. but hey look how many of these shiny things i have got
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Re: A new oligopoly brewing? (10 Aug, 2020)

Postby Perry » Tue Aug 11, 2020 9:41 am

Perry wrote:Could it suggest that the gNats care more about housing tenants than the socio-commies?
Ossified Location wrote: Just to clarify, are you suggesting that there are 39,393 empty houses in Auckland because National cares about housing tenants?

Nothing to do with empty houses. Rather, which Party's MPs own how many.

You were not suggesting all gNat MPs 'extra' houses are empty, were you?
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Re: A new oligopoly brewing? (10 Aug, 2020)

Postby greven » Tue Aug 11, 2020 6:20 pm

aardvark_admin wrote:I've said for a very long time that NZ's reliance on the capital gains of property is crippling this nation's economy.

Money that could be invested in productive enterprise (that creates jobs and export receipts) gets tied up in unproductive (and often unused) houses and other property assets. We'll forever be a "poor" country with a widening gap between haves and have-nots so long as this continues and our entrepreneurs will continue to take their ideas, their energies and the opportunities they create offshore for lack of affordable VC here.

The problem is that we are now so addicted to property as an investment and nestegg that no government can afford to do *anything* that might harm property prices. Their own portfolios would be affected and they'd lose huge support from those heavily invested in property.

We hare hopelessly addicted and that addiction is crippling us :-(

Compare NZ to Singapore -- where the government owns all the land and you can only lease. A thriving economy with a huge GDP when compared to the resources NZ has.


Sadly, the problem is almost impossible to fix for the same reason it is a problem in the first place - a huge proportion of NZ household wealth and debt is tied up in property.
We need to be encouraging investors to increase supply by building new houses instead of buying 30+ year old houses & doing the bare minimum to make them legal.
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Re: A new oligopoly brewing? (10 Aug, 2020)

Postby Perry » Tue Aug 11, 2020 7:24 pm

Most so-called [property-related] capital 'gains' are an illusion. A mirage. One fostered by gummints and foisted on voting booth fodder in an effort to get X or Y elected. Or re-elected.

The harsh reality is that - in most cases, the alleged 'gains' are no more than an inflationary change in numbers. But no one wants to hear that.

As a quasi example, if the gummint increased by $200 the excise, or duties or whatever on new imported cars, the cost of second-hand cars would - over-night - go up by $200.

I have tested this.

Me) The land on which my residence is built is now worth seven times what I paid for it. Is that a capital gain?
Moron) Yes.
Me) Are you sure that it is a real gain?
Moron) Yes.
Me) So if I sold it, I could buy seven more properties with that gain?
Moron) No.
Me) Why?
Moron) Because inflation means that all other similar properties have increased in value / cost / gain / price by the same amount.
Me) So where is / was that capital gain you go on about?
Moron) Let's talk about the weather.
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Re: A new oligopoly brewing? (10 Aug, 2020)

Postby greven » Tue Aug 11, 2020 7:35 pm

Property capital gains are fairly meaningless for people who only own one property, but the massive gains above general inflation become very real when someone sells their 2nd/3rd/400th property

The gains are only illusionary until the time comes to cash out & leave the property investment game.
Last edited by greven on Tue Aug 11, 2020 7:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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