If you were God (30 Oct, 2014)

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Re: If you were God (30 Oct, 2014)

Postby virtualkiwi » Thu Oct 30, 2014 12:37 pm

DigiDog wrote:I grew up in the Catholic education system and evolution was always accepted as reality, even by the nuns. As Malcolm says, it's the Baptists and their ilk who adhere to outdated 'intelligent design" philosophies.

I grew up a religious mongrel, went to the Methodist church until old enough to choose for myself, but went to a Catholic school, and chose to go to a Baptist church when I was old enough to figure out what I wanted. Actually I think that was girls - and more of them seemed to go to the Baptist Church ;)

The Methodists seemed to have quite a few liberal thinkers who were happy to accept cosmology and evolution, and even in the Baptist church I have an elderly pastor friend who is firmly a believer in evolution. (I also remember a few times when we used to get together with the local Catholics and have a great time).

One problem within the Baptist movement, something that I used to see as an advantage, is the democratic congregational governance model. The trouble is if you get a bunch of people with extreme views this can quickly become the official position of the congregation.
Also I think as church attendance has declined, those people who continue to attend seem to be more likely to be polarised radicals.

It can actually be quite hard for someone who has a belief in God, but wants to ask questions and reconcile their faith with observable features of the universe. On the one hand you have militant atheists who tend to think anything that involves God is bad and the other fundamentalists who insist belief has to be tied to dubious 'literal' interpretations of a book that is actually a vast collection of different forms of literature which simply can't be treated as a monolithic whole.
I'm encouraged to see that many of the core team in the NZ branch of A Rocha, an international Christian environmental organisation actually have strong backgrounds in the sciences, and I strongly suspect many of them are perfectly OK with evolution, geology and cosmology.
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Re: If you were God (30 Oct, 2014)

Postby virtualkiwi » Thu Oct 30, 2014 12:51 pm

aardvark_admin wrote:I'm not so sure. I'm sure I read somewhere that within 10 years we'll have nuclear fission reactors, flying cars, jetpacks plus a cure for cancer and the common cold. I'm sure we can throw a full understanding of the universe and everything into that prediction as well. :lol:

Ah ... Jetpacks ... if ever there was a need for religion that's one. ;) Only true believers will know the things will be commercially viable,and you'll certainly need to have faith when you're flying one and it has an engine malfunction. They don't run on water by any chance?
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Re: If you were God (30 Oct, 2014)

Postby Screw » Thu Oct 30, 2014 4:42 pm

virtualkiwi wrote:Ah ... Jetpacks ... if ever there was a need for religion that's one. ;) Only true believers will know the things will be commercially viable,and you'll certainly need to have faith when you're flying one and it has an engine malfunction. They don't run on water by any chance?


Shades of Flash Gordon!

I was dragged up in an Anglican family where me Ma' went to church every Sunday and me Da' once a month. Got tossed out of Bible studies because I asked too many questions, most starting with "Why" or "How"! How did Joshua make the sun stand still? Must have stopped the Earth somehow! Where did Cain and Abel get their wives from? They and their Mater and Pater were the only people on the planet at the time.

No. The Jewish Religion originated in Alexandria about 700BC and their whole history was created by a small group of Rabbi who wanted to give some definition to a small, insignificant tribe wandering around the Sinai Desert. They simply copied the religious beliefs from all the different people who lived in that area at that time, notably the monotheistic Yazidis! There is absolutely no evidence the Jesus Christ actually existed either.

Think about it: Judea at that time was about the size of Northland with a population of about 2.5 million. There was this strange fellow wandering around performing all those wonderful miracles yet no-one at the time noticed any of them. Think of some-one wandering around Sth Waikato performing miracles yet nobody there knows anything about it happening! Tacitus, Cicero Jr, and Josephus all lived at that time yet made no mention of Jesus, strange!

@Ross Nixon: You are wrong my man, when you cross breed a horse with a donkey (both from the same ancestor) you will get a hybrid (Mule) that can't breed as it has no genitalia.
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Re: If you were God (30 Oct, 2014)

Postby DigiDog » Thu Oct 30, 2014 5:16 pm

virtualkiwi wrote:Ah ... Jetpacks ... if ever there was a need for religion that's one.

Speaking of which... Martin Aircraft Co is trying to raise A$25 million on the Aussie Stock Exchange. I guess they must have run out of gullible kiwis. ;-)
Last edited by DigiDog on Tue Nov 18, 2014 8:53 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: If you were God (30 Oct, 2014)

Postby aardvark_admin » Thu Oct 30, 2014 6:02 pm

Yes, I saw that yesterday but figured I'd already bored everyone to tears with my predictions of doom on that front ;-)
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Re: If you were God (30 Oct, 2014)

Postby Malcolm » Fri Oct 31, 2014 8:40 am

Screw wrote:
No. The Jewish Religion originated in Alexandria about 700BC and their whole history was created by a small group of Rabbi who wanted to give some definition to a small, insignificant tribe wandering around the Sinai Desert. They simply copied the religious beliefs from all the different people who lived in that area at that time, notably the monotheistic Yazidis! There is absolutely no evidence the Jesus Christ actually existed either.

Think about it: Judea at that time was about the size of Northland with a population of about 2.5 million. There was this strange fellow wandering around performing all those wonderful miracles yet no-one at the time noticed any of them. Think of some-one wandering around Sth Waikato performing miracles yet nobody there knows anything about it happening! Tacitus, Cicero Jr, and Josephus all lived at that time yet made no mention of Jesus, strange!


The area was under Roman control at the time as well and the Romans are said to have invented (or at least perfected) beauracracy. Yet there is no documents produced yet of the execution of Jesus. Archeaologists have found and analysed numourous Roman documents from that era from the important to the mundane, but yet no one has found any of their documents from that time with any corroborating evidence. All we have is a set of books written a couple of centruries later based on passed down oral histories...
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Re: If you were God (30 Oct, 2014)

Postby par_annoyed » Mon Nov 03, 2014 8:42 am

There's a brilliantly funny section in one of Terry Pratchetts' Discworld books , where our heroes meet God (or God for the system they are currently in) and he's complaining about the assembly of an elephant, and then a middle aged female secretary explains the idea of sex and evolution to him..... It's a fantastic way to poke fun at the creationist vs evolution argument, it made me laugh for quite a while....

I've never quite understood the 'faith denies proof' argument, to be honest, but let's face it, it's the extremist religious views which cause all the hassle, be they Christian, Muslim,Atheist or whatever.

I also like Douglas Adams idea of God's final message to creation....

From above -
"If science and religion do not agree then religion is wrong and superstition." (Who said this?)

Isn't it quite possible that science is wrong, and the religious view happens to be right on some things ?

For example - do you believe "black holes" actually exist, or that it's the only way astronomers can get their current view/model of the universe to work ??
(There is a strong argument that the whole idea of a "black hole" is just the use of a quirk of the mathematic formulae, and that there is no other [currently accepted] way to get galaxies to actually hold together.)
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Re: If you were God (30 Oct, 2014)

Postby George Tyler » Tue Nov 11, 2014 1:25 pm

Malcolm wrote:
Screw wrote:
.....
Think about it: Judea at that time was about the size of Northland with a population of about 2.5 million. There was this strange fellow wandering around performing all those wonderful miracles yet no-one at the time noticed any of them. Think of some-one wandering around Sth Waikato performing miracles yet nobody there knows anything about it happening! Tacitus, Cicero Jr, and Josephus all lived at that time yet made no mention of Jesus, strange!


The area was under Roman control at the time as well and the Romans are said to have invented (or at least perfected) beauracracy. Yet there is no documents produced yet of the execution of Jesus. Archeaologists have found and analysed numourous Roman documents from that era from the important to the mundane, but yet no one has found any of their documents from that time with any corroborating evidence. All we have is a set of books written a couple of centruries later based on passed down oral histories...


Tacitus: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tacitus_on_Christ.
Josephus: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Josephus_on_Jesus
You can look into it more if you like.
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Re: If you were God (30 Oct, 2014)

Postby George Tyler » Tue Nov 11, 2014 2:22 pm

Screw wrote: " No. The Jewish Religion originated in Alexandria about 700BC and their whole history was created by a small group of Rabbi who wanted to give some definition to a small, insignificant tribe wandering around the Sinai Desert. They simply copied the religious beliefs from all the different people who lived in that area at that time, notably the monotheistic Yazidis! "

The Yazidis claim to be an offshoot from Adam. A bit like the Arabs, the Muslems say they came from Ismael, Abraham's first son born to Hagar, a servant (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ishmael). The Jews came from Isaac, the 2nd born to Abraham's wife Sarah. Both Jews and Muslims Agree on this, about all they see eye to eye on, and this explains the current situation in the middle east.
Anyway, the point is, this was all long before before the " a small, insignificant tribe wandering around the Sinai Desert".
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