tax fraud vs benefit fraud

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tax fraud vs benefit fraud

Postby Muscular Jam » Tue Aug 15, 2017 8:07 am

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In one year the Government spent nearly $50 million on benefit fraud investigations, uncovering $24 million lost and only recovering $5 million.

At the same time, tax fraud investigations uncovered $1.24 billion lost, spent $169.77 million trying to get it back and recovered $362.8 million.

Put another way, for every dollar we spend on investigating welfare discrepancies, we get a return of $0.09, and for tax fraud, we get a return $6.07!
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Re: tax fraud vs benefit fraud

Postby aardvark_admin » Tue Aug 15, 2017 8:52 am

Yes, could you imagine if Google, Apple and Facebook were beneficiaries and rorted the system to the extent that they're rorting the tax system?

Do you really think the government would say "there's nothing we can do"???

LOL

As I've always said... low hanging fruit are much easier to pick, even if the harvest is made not nearly so bountiful by doing so.
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Re: tax fraud vs benefit fraud

Postby Jimmy » Wed Sep 06, 2017 7:05 pm

Bad analysis.

It's not just about how much money was recovered. It's also about how much the ongoing policing of the rules detered fraud that would otherwise have occurred.

Plus, my experience is that IRD aren't exactly passive in chasing a business that is cheating on it's taxes. The Google, Apple, Facebook case and international tax analysis is complicated. Mostly companies (including Fonterra etc) pay taxes on their profits in the countries they are based in, and no matter how large they are and what their turnover may be they have to actually be making a profit to pay tax on it. Amazon, for instance, isn't actually that profitable.
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Re: tax fraud vs benefit fraud

Postby Muscular Jam » Thu Sep 07, 2017 2:07 pm

Jimmy wrote:It's not just about how much money was recovered. It's also about how much the ongoing policing of the rules detered fraud that would otherwise have occurred.
A valid point indeed, but using those figures means that deterring just 3% of tax fraud would save as much as completely eliminating 100% of benefit fraud. Which seems more achievable?

As a matter of principle I'd say all fraud is bad, but as a matter of practice surely it makes sense to go after the larger amount that provides greater returns. Yet what I observe is an inverse relationship.

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Re: tax fraud vs benefit fraud

Postby aardvark_admin » Thu Sep 07, 2017 2:24 pm

But Jam... you forget... those who make the rules shall not be bound by the rules: first law of government.
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Re: tax fraud vs benefit fraud

Postby phill » Thu Sep 07, 2017 3:03 pm

finding out bullshit billy was a lying thieving prick didnt surprise anyone though
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Re: tax fraud vs benefit fraud

Postby Muscular Jam » Thu Sep 07, 2017 3:09 pm

phill wrote:finding out bullshit billy was a lying thieving prick didnt surprise anyone though
Well no, I agree. But the discrepancy in the responses to those two cases still fascinates me.
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Re: tax fraud vs benefit fraud

Postby Malcolm » Fri Sep 08, 2017 8:15 am

phill wrote:finding out bullshit billy was a lying thieving prick didnt surprise anyone though

The best analysis I saw was that the Green supporters expect their politicians to be clean and honest. National supporters don't. Also in comparison to the rest of the party Metiria was not as important. They still have a number of very capable female candidates just below Metiria who can replace her easily enough. Compare to Winston and his Super overpayments, who would NZ First get to replace him if they needed?
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Re: tax fraud vs benefit fraud

Postby aardvark_admin » Fri Sep 08, 2017 8:54 am

How sad it is that we *expect* our politicians to be dishonest. Have our standards really fallen that low?

Is it any wonder that in some key areas (ie: egalitarianism, opportunity, etc) our country is increasingly deteriorating?

We need to lift our standards and our expectations of those who would seek to govern us.
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Re: tax fraud vs benefit fraud

Postby Jimmy » Sun Sep 10, 2017 6:31 pm

I'm no fan of the Nats and probably won't vote for them this time. But, looking at that poster of Meteria and Bill, I think it is more than a bit slanted.

For starters, there is an inference that Bill was somehow cheating to get money by using a trust to "hide his assets". When in fact there are plenty of legitimate uses for trusts (matrimonial property, protecting the family home from lawsuits when in a high profile job etc), plus the existence of the trust (and indeed whatever assets he owns) has zero impact on his entitlement to a Ministerial allowance. Also, what he claimed might have been improper - but it was within the rules (which I understand have now been changed) and wasn't fraud. And, when challenged on it, he repaid the money anyway.

Meteria, by contrast, didn't just steal "a few dollars to feed her family". She engaged in a deliberate and long-term defrauding of the welfare system for (according to reports I have seen) an amount exceeding $50,000. To do this she repeatedly lied about her living circumstances and lied about the support received from the father and other family members. She would have to confirm, in writing, that the information she had based her claim on was true - and done so each year. On top of this, she engaged in electoral fraud - which surely isn't acceptable for the leader of a party, particularly one that campaigns from a fairly holier-than-thou position on issues.

So I think the graphic is a bit misleading.
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