Wise Words from Bryan Gould...

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Re: Wise Words from Bryan Gould...

Postby aardvark_admin » Mon Feb 09, 2015 8:58 am

But screw, if you set up a widely accepted trading currency that operated totally independently of the government's control you would very quickly find that "the powers that be" would come down on it like a tonne of bricks. Their control of the money system constitutes control of the people and we can't have people being freed of that control can we?
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Re: Wise Words from Bryan Gould...

Postby Screw » Mon Feb 09, 2015 11:43 am

Not true Bruce. Just convincing the local supermarket that your wallet full of Gidgets you printed is worth something is the only problem.
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Re: Wise Words from Bryan Gould...

Postby aardvark_admin » Mon Feb 09, 2015 11:49 am

That may be true right now Screw, but just look at how many businesses opened their doors to Bitcoin and if governments keep printing money at the rate they are, a third-party currency may end up having more cache than the "official" currency -- if only because its value may not be eroded by ongoing QE.
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Re: Wise Words from Bryan Gould...

Postby GSVNoFixedAbode » Mon Feb 09, 2015 2:20 pm

aardvark_admin wrote:But Screw, they have a monopoly. Nobody else can go around printing money without getting pounded by government(s).

Ergo we are paid in monopoly money. Always thought it was dodgy! :lol:
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Re: Wise Words from Bryan Gould...

Postby phill » Mon Feb 09, 2015 2:49 pm

you should look at the amount of places now trading with .. local .. currency
i think it started in a place called totness

if people choose to place value into something there isnt a lot the govt can do .. or tax about it
no matter what it is or what its called
( ,,,,,,,, ....... A E I O U use em sparingly theres probably not enough )

i might live and eat in a sewer .. but hey look how many of these shiney things i have got
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Re: Wise Words from Bryan Gould...

Postby aardvark_admin » Mon Feb 09, 2015 3:06 pm

I think you'll find that where there is a transfer of "value" from one party to another, the government will always levy a tax.

You may trade that value in pearls, stones, flint or whatever but the government will want its share in cold, hard coin of the realm. That's the way the laws are written. Even if you barter, you owe the government a percentage of whatever your gain is and you can't give them three out of every chickens you earn as profit -- you must give cash to the equivalent value.
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Re: Wise Words from Bryan Gould...

Postby phill » Mon Feb 09, 2015 3:55 pm

yeh .. i think the problem finished when they tried the tax on local currency
and were paid in it
rather then spread the rot they just ignored it and hoped it would die
no doubt they are still trying to find a way around it
the quandary
if its local currency and people use it
and we tax it
what do we do with it then
as the local rules are they may or may not accept it as currency as they wish
so any attempt by the govt to trade it locally is well know as in this small system everyone knows who has what
so should the govt ever try to redeem such its a case of ohh sorry not today try again tomorrow .. aka we shall just put you on hold for while do call again soon

look up "transition towns" .. totness was the first and the role for most
there are quite a few already in nz some with their own local currency .. have you heard the govt say anything about it ... ahhh no
( ,,,,,,,, ....... A E I O U use em sparingly theres probably not enough )

i might live and eat in a sewer .. but hey look how many of these shiney things i have got
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Re: Wise Words from Bryan Gould...

Postby Jimmy » Mon Feb 09, 2015 7:31 pm

Screw wrote: Back in the Middle Ages, some communities had a different system with money. At the start of the year each adult in the community was issued with one gold coin or lesser coins to the gold coin value, that they could use to trade with each other. At the end of the year all the coins were collected and re-minted into other coins and the issue started again. The idea was to stop some hoarding the coins as they had no value at the end of the year and forced those with spare coins to invest them in the community. The end result was a prosperous community!


And which communities were those? I've never heard of that. And why would anyone, say, trade anything of real value for a coin towards the end of the year, when they knew it was about to be confiscated and melted down?

Screw wrote: We have a similar system but ours is privatised. The Reserve changes our banknotes every 5 years and takes the old ones out of circulation. That stops hoarding the notes as they have no value after 7 years. It forces people to put their excess notes into a Bank to save.


Cobblers. The RB replaces notes about every 7 years because of wear and tear. Notes don't magically have no value after 7 years. Try and deposit a note that's 20+ years old at the bank and it's still accepted. Heck, you can even still redeem old NZ pound notes if you should happen to have any. Plus, the way seigniorage works in our monetary system it would be totally irrational for the RB to stop anyone who wanted to do so hoarding notes - it's effectively an interest-free loan to the Government and they make money on it.

Screw wrote: A banknote only has the real value of the cost of printing it, shipping it, and putting it into circulation. Take a $10 note, it costs around $1 to print (ours are printed in Sth Africa) and ship. It costs about another $1 to put it into circulation and about $1 more to keep it there. So that makes it's true value only $3, that's why we need so damned many to get by!!


Nope again. Like everything else, a bank note only has the real value people ascribe to it. You need to understand the difference between intrinsic and extrinsic value.

Screw wrote: Why do you think our notes are cut from a supermarket plastic bag with a fancy window in them and our coins are punched from the bottom of a Wattie's Baked Beans can? That alone should tell people that our money is worthless.


Actually, our notes are pretty high tech and not that cheap to produce. That has noting to do with their actual value - it's more a case of making them harder wearing (and needing to be replaced less often) and keeping counterfeiters at bay.
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Re: Wise Words from Bryan Gould...

Postby Jimmy » Mon Feb 09, 2015 7:37 pm

GSVNoFixedAbode wrote:
aardvark_admin wrote:But Screw, they have a monopoly. Nobody else can go around printing money without getting pounded by government(s).

Ergo we are paid in monopoly money. Always thought it was dodgy! :lol:


You can print whatever you like, as long as you don't claim it's New Zealand dollars (which is the only thing the RB has a monopoly on, and would send you to jail for forgery). If you can get people to use them in exchange for goods and services, you have effectively created money. If you can convince the shops in Tokoroa to accept your new notes and coins (Golden Aardvarks?) then there's nothing to stop you minting/printing to your hearts content. And shops will take other money that isn't NZ legal tender - some shops on Lambton Quay will happily price in, and accept, $US from tourists.
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Re: Wise Words from Bryan Gould...

Postby phill » Mon Feb 09, 2015 9:47 pm

correction

its totnes not totness

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/th ... 18586.html

when a local financial system is not backed by tender of the realm it would be very difficult to monitor its use ie have it stripped at each passing

and the system of lets is labour bargaining

nz law says you can swap labour and its non taxable if its not in the area you normally work and therefor be considered as taxable income

yeh i cheated i was a member of transition town kaitaia for awhile
( ,,,,,,,, ....... A E I O U use em sparingly theres probably not enough )

i might live and eat in a sewer .. but hey look how many of these shiney things i have got
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