I call Bullshirt! (23 Jul, 2021)

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Re: I call Bullshirt! (23 Jul, 2021)

Postby Kiwiiano » Sat Jul 24, 2021 8:48 am

Hiro Protagonist wrote:Manapouri is largely immune to the 'dry year, low lake level' problem because of its location in one of the highest rainfall areas in the world. However if you just need a backstop for the rest of the hydro plants, connecting Manapouri to the national grid would be far more effective than pissing around with H2.

That appears to be a no-brainer!

Making H2 from surplus electricity isn't totally nuts either[1], as there are a lot of current users of natural gas that would find it difficult to switch to alternatives, BUT, if we switch the country to electric vehicles, and current coal users and the railways to electricity, even with Manapouri we're not going to have a surplus for long.

H2 is still going to be a bitch to distribute to the existing CNG/LPG users unless it is modified to one or other liquid fuel.

The best thing we could do for renewable energy in NZ is bring some more major hydro generation online, backed with wind and solar to improve resiliency during dry years.

Meanwhile the equivalent of 3x Waitaki Power Schemes sloshes through Cook Strait 4x a day.

[1] There are mechanisms for catalysing H2 production from water that are more efficient than straight electrolysis - dunno if that's being considered by these bozos.

Ooo...shiney! What are they, Hiro?
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Re: I call Bullshirt! (23 Jul, 2021)

Postby roygbiv » Sat Jul 24, 2021 8:49 am

Yes, my bullish!t detector was at full volume when I read the article too.

I am no expert on hydrogen power but from what I have read it does not travel well or have to be consumed soon after it is produced. It will be one of those industries that will only work with the economies of scale - supply and demand etc. So the market jonnies have to firstly create a market for hydrogen consumption that will replace what we have now. Being green is just a factor.

But the main flaw with hydrogen production is this:
produce electricity ===> produce hydrogen =====> power something

What we have now is

produce electricity =====> power something

It will be a hard sell ;)
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Re: I call Bullshirt! (23 Jul, 2021)

Postby paulw » Sun Jul 25, 2021 8:31 am

From the Stuff article "On the export front, the Government already has agreements of co-operation with Japan and Singapore to research production and explore New Zealand’s export potential."
This will lead to export greed like everything else that we export. The domestic Hydrogen market will be paying the export price so it will be priced out of the ball park. Hydrogen replacing natural gas and LPG will be just too expensive.
I may have a place in the trucking and rail industry as a fuel cell fuel but not in the domestic car industry . BEV is where that will go.
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Re: I call Bullshirt! (23 Jul, 2021)

Postby aardvark_admin » Sun Jul 25, 2021 9:32 am

paulw wrote:This will lead to export greed like everything else that we export

Yes, watch Rio Tinto perhaps do a pivot into H2 production and effectively have its plant further subsidised by NZ taxpayes and consumers who will pay many times the going rate for the electricity it uses so as to line the pockets of this huge multinational :-(

Meanwhile, we'll still be suffering electricity shortages as EVs start drawing down on the grid and climate change plays with our renewable energy generation capabilities.

Hmmm... time to invest in coal futures? :-)
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Re: I call Bullshirt! (23 Jul, 2021)

Postby sn12 » Sun Jul 25, 2021 11:15 pm

Our Chemistry classes as school taught us that to produce hydrogen, Electricity and Water are all that is required.
The problem has always been more energy is used to break down the water molecule than remains in the hydrogen released.
There are plenty of sunny countries around the world with a coastline with both constituents and it does not matter how much electricity is used as the Sun has plenty to spare.
What will be missing in poorer countries will the money to pay for the Solar Cells and desalination infrastructures.

IMHO this is while the pioneers of these facilitates (if they don't exist already) are likely to be the wealthy Arab countries that will be looking to replace their oil revenue streams.
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Re: I call Bullshirt! (23 Jul, 2021)

Postby Malcolm » Mon Jul 26, 2021 11:12 am

roygbiv wrote:Yes, my bullish!t detector was at full volume when I read the article too.

I am no expert on hydrogen power but from what I have read it does not travel well or have to be consumed soon after it is produced. It will be one of those industries that will only work with the economies of scale - supply and demand etc. So the market jonnies have to firstly create a market for hydrogen consumption that will replace what we have now. Being green is just a factor.


Yep, because molecular hydrogen is so small it can find it's way through most storage containers, simply fitting through the gaps in the molecules which make up the walls. So if you have some H2 sitting in a steel pressure vessel it will over time slowly seep out. So storage is a real problem. Apparently there have been advances in using a container made up of sandwiched layers of different materials (steel, kevlar etc). Of the big car manufacturers it seems on Toyota thinks the future is hydrogen. Of the rest it looks like electric is the way forward. I wonder what happened with ethanol and other bio-fuels? Since they can take carbon out of the atmosphere to produce they should in theory be carbon-neural.
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Re: I call Bullshirt! (23 Jul, 2021)

Postby aardvark_admin » Mon Jul 26, 2021 11:27 am

Malcolm wrote:I wonder what happened with ethanol and other bio-fuels? Since they can take carbon out of the atmosphere to produce they should in theory be carbon-neural.

I believe that although they burn cleanly, there is a significant carbon footprint involved in their production.

ie: the amount of fossil fuel required to grow corn for ethanol is not significantly less than simply burning petrol to extract the same number of joules -- in some cases it may actually release *more* carbon to create biofuels than the amount that an equivalent amount of fossil fuel would release in creating the same amount of output power.
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Re: I call Bullshirt! (23 Jul, 2021)

Postby phill » Mon Jul 26, 2021 11:29 am

bulrushes have the best conversion rate per hectare than anything else ( twice that of sugar cane when in nutrient enhanced environments ) .. they can be planted at every treatment station as final treatment stage filter and denutrifier
( ,,,,,,,, ....... A E I O U use em sparingly theres probably not enough )

i might live and eat in a sewer .. but hey look how many of these shiny things i have got
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